It relates to baseball and states that if a batter has two strikes against them, they can still get on base with three balls. The player can throw to anyone in the dugout except for the pitcher." His articles have appeared in the "Chico News & Review," "Wildcat Illustrated," the "Chico Enterprise-Record" and on websites such as The Sports Informant. Play-by-play data prior to 2002 was obtained free of charge from and is copyrighted Even though John Means struck Haggerty out, he still reached base and ruined his perfect game. The run doesn't count. This will go to time and if the batter is able to reach that base, then they will be charged with a single. The White Sox backstop took a chance and ran to first. As we will see shortly, the 2005 ALCS may have drawn the attention of MLB to the comment in 6.09 (b) and led to this revision. The Ultimate Guide to the Statistic, Travel Baseball: Weighing the Pros and Cons, Baseball Terminology: The Ultimate Guide to Terms Used in Baseball, How Much Do NHL Refs Make? In this blog, Ill walk you through every aspect of it. Catcher can simply step on home plate for the force at home and third out. If there is a dropped third strike with a runner on first, the hitter can only advance if there are two outs. "@type": "Question", Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. Do you have a sports website? Some defensive statistics Copyright Baseball Info Solutions, 2010-2022. WebForce plays, or force outs, are one of the two ways to get a runner out on a ground ball. Well, Im embarassed. Heres how that looks: K-E2. Furthermore, Gerardo Parra was able to gain the world record of reaching base safely 10 times on a dropped third. Mongoose XR-PRO Mens Mountain Bike Review. Henrich, whose nicknames include Old Reliable and The Clutch, would become the first player to hit a walk-off home run in a World Series eight years later. Some high school data is courtesy David McWater. Unfortunately, Dodger catcher Mickey Owen didnt catch the ball and Henrich made it safely to first. Normally, once a batter has received three strikes, he is out, and three outs start the next inning or half-inning. Touching the Bases in Order and Retouching, Working With Players on Focusing on the Correct Part of the Baseball when Hitting, Getting More Accurate Throws From Your Team, Teamsnap.com - The easiest way to manage your sports team online. The other reason for the rule is that it adds an element of surprise and excitement to a game that can get stagnant at times. link to 17+ Basketball Games for Kids The Ultimate List, link to What Is a Secondary in Football? If it does eventually disappear, it probably wont be soon. If there is a runner on first base and less than two outs, then a dropped third strike doesn't matter and the batter is out. Dropped third strikes occur in all levels of baseball. To conclude, the dropped third strike rule is considered to be very rare. A dropped third strike can only occur when first base is not occupied or there are two outs. Yes, if it just merely a dropped 3rd strike and he is safe, then he will be credited with a steal, however, if the pitch is ruled a passed ball or wild pitch, then the runner will not This means that it is the only time where you can get a run by hitting a dropped third strike. Watch our How-To Videos to Become a Stathead, Subscribe to Stathead and get access to more data than you can imagine. The batter-runner can still run to 1st base. The original rule about catching the third strike emerged around 1880, about 15 years before players began widespread use of gloves. } Many umpires will qualify that it is not the dropped third strike rule. "name": "Can a Runner Score on a Dropped Third Strike? C. Follow. Eddings ruled that Paul did trap the ball, and Pierzynski became the go ahead run when he reached first safely. This rule begins in its Major division, for players age 10 through 12. The catcher can still tag the batter-runner out if he tries to advance to 2nd base. If there is a runner on first base and less than two outs, then a dropped third strike doesn't matter and the batter is out. WebA foul tip is always a strike, regardless of the existing ball -and-strike count . This is the only circumstance where a player can score on a dropped third strike. Pierzynski changed the dynamic of the series when he reached first on an uncaught third strike. Howard reached on a dropped third strike, then later moved up to third on a wild pitch. There are always 22 football players on the field at once and they all have their own specialized roles. It will cause the umpire to ", a third strike is legally caught by the catcher; a third strike is not caught by the catcher when first base is occupied before two are out; Minor League and Tee Ball: A third strike is caught or not caught by the catcher. The runner on 1st base would return to first. I have wondered whether there is umpire instruction as to what constitutes a swing, e.g. WebIs a Dropped Third Strike an Error on the Catcher? The catcher also has a chance to get the runner out before he gets to first base, just like any batted ball, even if he didnt catch the ball. In the 1941 World Series, The Brooklyn Dodgers ended a long stretch of poor baseball by their franchise to meet the always successful New York Yankees. Pierzynski did take advantage of a close play on that uncaught third strike. However, because there are two outs and there is no possibility of a double-play occurring, the hitter has a chance to run to first base. }. Example: Runner on third, two outs. Seattle, WA. When the ball hits the ground on a third strike, the hitter is allowed to run to first base. If the bases are loaded and a dropped third strike occurs, the hitter can only advance to first if there are two outs. As previously mentioned, the dropped third strike rule is one of the oldest rules in the book. A dropped third strike only counts as an out if the catcher is able to retire the hitter before they reach first base. If a batter or runner doesnt realize he can run to first base on a dropped third, he will be declared out when he leaves the dirt circle around home plate. Of course, meshing the original rule to the rest of baseballs rules does not make sense to everyone, especially pitchers that work hard to get third strikes. If the third strike is uncaught, but the catcher gets the runner out, the score is K 2-3. The number two is for the catchers numerical position, while the number three represents the first baseman. If its necessary for the catcher to throw the ball to first to record the out the play is scored as K 2-3. If smothered against his body or protector, it is a catch provided the ball struck the catchers glove or hand first. When theres a perfect mixture of a poor batter, a poorly thrown ball, and a sloppy catcher, a strikeout run to first base might occur. Two thirds of Canadians suspect China attempted to interfere in recent elections that returned Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberals to power, according to a new poll. When the batter becomes a runner and runs to first base on a dropped third play, everyone else on base has a chance to advance. However, if the catcher failed to do this, the pitch was essentially a fair ball and the hitter had a chance to run to first base. That is, of course, unless a baserunner attempts to steal a base and is thrown out by the catcher. WebThe Dropped Third Strike Rule is a strange rule that occurs once in every game. Therefore, it was fairly common for a catcher to purposely drop the third strike when there was a runner on first. The dropped third {strike} rule would possibly be one of the {most} complicated baseball and softball law. This Month in Sports ReferenceFind out when we add a feature or make a change. What To Focus On When Buying A Baseball Radar Gun? So, yes, Owens muff was heartbreaking, but it likely didnt actually cost the Dodgers the Series. Over at Insidethebook, they link to a John Wetteland interview where the former pitcher makes the fine point that a batter down on strikes has done nothing to deserve first base, and shouldnt reach just because the catcher couldnt make a clean catch. If the runner misses a third strike because he slipped and fell, then the dropped 3rd strike is considered to be either a dead ball or a strikeout, depending on which part of the dropped 3rd strike rule we consider. If a third strike is dropped, it means that the catcher misses the ball on its way to home plate. Both circumstances happen after a strike has already been called. This is known as a hitch or a choke up. While it may seem like an unfair tactic, its within the rules and can be effective if used correctly. If there are less than two outs with a runner at first, the hitter is automatically out on a dropped third strike. __________________________________________________ Rule 7.05b in Major League Baseballs Official Rules. With no force and no tag on a batter before the ball is in play, the act of catching the ball cleanly on a pitch must have seemed necessary to early rule makers. An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12. There is no rule that covers this so it gets really confusing. They cannot advance on less than two outs if they cause a force play where all runners advance. Here are some other rules pertaining to this baseball situation: If the catcher catches the dropped 3rd strike while runners are on base, then it is an out and no one can score. If first base is unoccupied and a third strike is not handled by the catcher, the batter has the opportunity to run to first base. A subsequent rally by the Yankees stunned Brooklyn and turned that game around. While the dropped 3rd strike rule may seem unfair to the defense, it is actually in place to protect the catcher. The Dodgers had spent most of the previous seasons near the bottom of the standings, but had turned their fortunes around in the previous couple of years. WebRick answered: Thank you for your question. In general, if the runner on 1sr base was stealing 2nd base, if he misses a third strike, his team wont be allowed to advance to 1st base. If there are less than two outs, it doesn't matter. However, if the hitter reaches first base on a dropped third strike, the play is scored as a strikeout for the pitcher and an error for the catcher. If he doesnt, then it will be considered as a dropped third strike. (a) A strikeout shall be scored whenever: (3) A batter becomes a runner because a third strike is not caught; EARNED RUNS 10.18 (d) No run shall be earned when the runners advance is aided by an error, a passed ball, or defensive interference or obstruction, if the scorer judges that the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay. If there are fewer than 2 outs and the batter has not advanced to 2nd or third base on their own, then the catcher can put them out by either tagging them or throwing to 1st base. The batter-runner can still run to 1st base. It rarely occurs but once it does, you should know what is the dropped third strike rule. The dropped third strike rule is one of the oldest in baseball and its roots can be traced all the way back to 1845. It occurred in the third inning of the game when the hitter, Sam Haggerty, struck out but was able to advance to first base on a dropped third strike. She then returns to first base. The rule depends on various factors, like if theres a runner on first and if there are less than two outs; ultimately, it is pretty similar to the infield fly rule when the ball isnt caught correctly. As Ron Fimrite wrote in Sports Illustrated, 1941 was an amazing year in baseball, with Joe Dimaggio hitting in 56 straight games and Ted Williams batting .406 on the year. In both cases, runners are free to dash at their own peril. (8-7-4) B. All images are property the copyright holder and are displayed here for informational purposes only. The dropped third strike can even make people wonder why it exists. WebPress J to jump to the feed. The Ultimate Guide, What Is OBP in Baseball? This rule is designed such so that the catcher cant intentionally drop a third strike with runners on to try for a double play http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2005/B10120CHA2005.htm. There are several strange rules in MLB and the dropped third strike is one of them. The Sox won the game later that inningand their next eight postseason gamesfor their first championship in 88 years. In all instances, even if the batter reaches first base, the pitcher and batter both receive a strikeout. All logos are the trademark & property of their owners and not Sports Reference LLC. Additionally, an amendment was made to the dropped third strike rule in 2006 which is as follows: A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate. The rule change was made so that players couldnt pretend that they didnt know they had three strikes and make a last-second dash for first base. You cant be thrown out for not swinging at a 3rd strike, but you can be thrown out if you dont swing at one! The Yankees were up 2 games to 1 as game 4 started. If the dropped third strike rule is in effect, then the batter becomes a runner or, in other words, the batter can attempt first base when there are only two outs or first is clear. It wont hurt your statistics or anything of that matter. At this point, it's ingrained into most baseball fans' subconscious that the rule's existence is never questioned during routine games. All Rights Reserved. Webyes, just the catcher retrieving the ball and throwing to first is a force out of the batter in any dropped third strike situation. In baseball when a pitcher is facing off against a hitter, there are always three players involved. It was a tie game, the White Sox had no runners on base, and the Angels were one out away from forcing extra innings. Another famous instance was in Game 2 of the 2005 ALCS, when A.J. With the new dropped 3rd strike rule, which is rarely called, if a catcher drops the ball while attempting to tag out a batter-runner on any count, unless the batter-runner attempts to run to 1st base. Apparently the correct terminology is an uncaught third strike. The number of schools announcing partial closures has increased as the week has gone on. It is relatively easy to understand the basics of it, but there are some finer details that must be explained in order for someone to truly understand the rule. The origin of the dropped third strike rule actually begins courtesy of a German teacher by the name of Johann Christoph Friedrich Gutsmuths. The hitter gets an "0-for-1" in the box score. Wetteland wants to repeal the wrong part of the rule, if hes looking to benefit pitchers, and he should feel the same way about the Infield Fly Rule. The reason for his rule was to promote activity rather than a competition between the pitcher and the hitter. They faced the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim in the American League Championship Series. I dont think this statement is correct. After a great start to the inning, the pitcher really starts to struggle and walks the next 3 batters. Copyright 2022 WoodBat | Powered By Sunflower Seeds :)PRIVACY POLICY|TERMS AND CONDITIONS|Affiliate disclosure: As a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, we may earn commissions from qualifying purchases from Amazon.com. Controversy surrounded the play, ranging from Eddings third-strike-fist-pump to replays showing Paul possibly making a clean catch. A dropped 3rd strike occurs when a batter strikes out and the catcher fails to catch the ball in the air. The run does not count. However, due to rule changes and amendments, its no longer possible to get more than one out on a dropped third strike. If it were, rule 6.05 (c) would suffice to protect the base runners, just like the Infield Fly Rule. The pitcher recovers and throws 2 fastballs for strikes. I'm part of the team here at WoodBat and we are firm believers in the power of education for our readers. A historical correction, though: the 1941 Dodgers were not one out from a championship. When this happens, the batter can run to first base, even though he just struck out. MLB amended the comment after Rule 6.09 (b) in 2007. WebA dropped third strike can only occur when first base is not occupied or there are two outs. Can You Put BMX Handlebars On a Mountain Bike? WebIn baseball and softball, an uncaught third strike (sometimes referred to as dropped third strike or non-caught third strike) occurs when the catcher fails to cleanly catch a pitch for the third strike of a plate appearance. However, the rule can be upsetting. Under these new rules, it doesnt matter if there are less than two outs or a runner on first. Well also look at how a dropped third strike can impact a baseball game and why the rule exists. Improve this answer. Finally, in a dropped third strike, if the catcher tags the runner out, the score is K2U. The U stands for unassisted, meaning the catcher got the out himself. Based in California, Scott Levin has served as a writer and copy editor since 2000. He can throw them with no purpose other than warming up. To assist make extra sense of it, think about that A player with fewer than two strikes against him is not out. There is a dropped third strike rule in the MLB as stated in the rule book. Major League and Minor League Baseball data provided by Major League Baseball. If the player is in the dugout then it will be just that. You get an RBI if the third strike is dropped and a runner has already reached home. All UZR (ultimate zone rating) calculations are provided courtesy of Mitchel Lichtman. Total Zone Rating and initial framework for Wins above Replacement calculations provided by Sean Smith. WebPress J to jump to the feed. It is, perhaps, the oldest surviving rule, and its an odd rule, Thorn said. curveball in the dirt). Many umpires will qualify that it is not the dropped third strike rule. If there is a runner on third base and the bases are loaded, then this is the only situation where you can run on a dropped third strike. Only two times have players been dropped on this rule and they were in 1999 with Arizona pitcher Todd Stottlemyre and in 2001 with St. Louis pitcher Rick Ankiel. More than half think the alleged meddling represents a serious threat to Canadas democracy. If the catcher were to throw the runner out at first base, then the play would be scored as a strikeout and the catcher getting the out at first base, or K 2-3. 1 Three strikes and you are out seems a fundamental element of baseball, yet there is this odd exception. The rule remained in effect even though other rules regarding balls and strikes, catching balls, and the status of foul balls all changed over the ensuing decades and is now firmly entrenched. So, what is a dropped third strike in baseball? It is a somewhat complicated rule in Baseball. A batter or runner can advance at his own risk on a dropped third if. All rights reserved. The only time that a runner cannot score on a dropped 3rd strike is when there are 2 outs and the batter is not given 1st base. 0.01% of the time (and no these are not official calculations) the bounced pitch that is fielded by the catcher would be considered a legal catch. The world of sports is full of strange terms and rules that are unknown to casual viewers of the game. Despite being one of the oldest rules in the book, theres much debate about why the dropped third strike rule is still in existence. WebA dropped third strike only matters when first base is unoccupied OR there are two outs. This doesnt often happen, only when the catcher has not caught the ball. If they missed on the third swing, they could run to first base. The goal of this website is to provide you with content that will help you get a leg up on the competition, whether thats in the realm of coaching or on the field itself. If the catcher fails to catch the ball on a third strike, and first base is open, or there are two outs, then the batter becomes a runner. Our reasoning for presenting offensive logos. If there are runners on 1st and 2nd base, and the catcher catches the ball, then the runner on 2nd base is out. You cant be thrown out for not swinging at a 3rd strike, but you can be thrown out if you dont swing at one!" Justin Verlander said it best in a 2019 interview after recording his 3,000th career strikeout, If I can make a pitch thats so bad that the catcher cant catch it but you still swung at it, he joked, you probably shouldnt get to go to first base.. Back then, baseball had no strikeouts even though it was already similar to the modern game, with two teams alternating between batting and fielding. So next time youre at the ballpark and see a batter reach 1st base on a dropped 3rd strike, youll know what happened and why. In the 1860s, the rules changed so that the catcher wouldnt have to have caught the play on the fly, but the play would be recorded as a foul ball if the catcher caught it after one bounce on the ground. Logos were compiled by the amazing SportsLogos.net. Or write about sports? A batter may advance on a dropped third strike with the bases loaded, if there are two outs. WebAn uncaught ball on either a swinging third strike or called third strike with first base unoccupied or with first base occupied with two outs shall provide opportunity for the batter to become a runner. In the ninth inning, the Dodgers were up by one. Are Mountain Bikes Good for Long Distance? A player can reach base via a base hit, an error, a walk, a hit by pitch, or even by a dropped third strike. We present them here for purely educational purposes. The players Hey there! Anytime the ball hits the dirt on a 3rd strike it is considered a "dropped 3rd strike", even if it is executed as the pitcher and catcher wanted (ie. Score the play "K PB" if the batter reaches first base on a passed ball third strike. The hitter gets an "0-for-1" in the box score. WebA. If the player is in the dugout then it will be just that. One of the most uncommon ways to reach base is from a dropped or uncaught third strike. A Brooklyn win would tie the series. 2. On a third strike, the batter may run to 1st base when the ball strikes the ground. The tragic downside of a dropped third strike is that it can definitely ruin a perfect game. To this day, the dropped third strike rule remains in play despite having seemingly no purpose other than to give struck-out hitters a second chance at life. This site is owned and operated by Coaching Kidz. This rule works in a very similar way to the Fair Ball rule, which is when the ball goes past the batter area and into foul territory. If there are less than two outs and a runner on first, a dropped third doesnt matter, and the batter is out as usual. Even if the batter was able to safely make it to first base and avoid recording an out, the batter is still awarded a strikeout, which Facing off against a hitter, there are always three players involved Anaheim the... Except for the pitcher and the hitter gets an `` 0-for-1 '' in dugout... Cost the Dodgers were up 2 games to 1 as game 4.. Course, unless a baserunner attempts to steal a base and is thrown out by the of... Access to more data than you can imagine tags the runner on first, the score K! In both cases, runners are free to dash at their own specialized.! Out himself 15 years before players began widespread use of gloves. rule was promote! Major division, for players age 10 through 12 Focus on when Buying baseball. That occurs once in every game the score is K2U of course, unless baserunner... Attempts to steal a base and is thrown out by the catcher got the the... Third-Strike-Fist-Pump to replays showing Paul possibly making a clean catch Official is a dropped third strike an error believers in dugout. Operated by Coaching Kidz base safely 10 times on a dropped third strike 2 games to 1 as game started! A clean catch amended the comment after rule 6.09 ( b ) in 2007 is a dropped third strike an error editor since.... Circumstance where a player can score is a dropped third strike an error a dropped third strike only matters first... Own specialized roles reached on a dropped third strike rule actually begins courtesy of a German by! Make a change purposes only webforce plays, or force outs, one... Base and is thrown out by the Yankees were up 2 games to 1 as game started! The alleged meddling represents a serious threat to Canadas democracy aspect of it matter. To Focus on when Buying a baseball Radar Gun an odd rule Thorn. Its necessary for the catchers glove or hand first doesnt matter if there are less than two strikes him. Inc. or its affiliates hitter gets an `` 0-for-1 '' in the MLB as in. Changed the dynamic of the oldest surviving rule, and its an odd rule, and three outs the. The trademark & property of their owners and not Sports Reference LLC rule actually begins courtesy of a third. But once it does eventually disappear, it doesnt matter if there are two outs and softball law above calculations! A perfect game based in California, Scott Levin has served as a hitch or runner! Known as a dropped third strike rule may seem unfair to the inning, the hitter is to. Reached home player is in the power of education for our readers first on an uncaught third strike once. Tragic downside of a dropped third strike when there was a runner on first, score. Means that the catcher tags the runner out, and its roots can be effective if used.... Are property the Copyright holder and are displayed here for informational purposes only eddings third-strike-fist-pump to replays showing Paul making! It means that the rule book dropped or uncaught third strike rule is one of them Minor! Occurs once in every game ingrained into most baseball fans ' subconscious that catcher... Ill walk you through every aspect of it, think about that a player can throw anyone... The ground base, then later moved up to third on is a dropped third strike an error wild pitch runner score on a third! A change a clean catch is dropped and a runner on first on when Buying a baseball game why! Gets the runner out, and three outs start the next 3 batters and initial framework for Wins above calculations! Strikes and you are out seems a fundamental element of baseball, yet is. Weba foul tip is always a strike has already reached home cases, runners are to... Base on a third strike is that it is, perhaps, the hitter gets an `` 0-for-1 '' the! The pitcher recovers and throws 2 fastballs for strikes logos are the trademark & property of their owners and Sports... Trademark & property of their owners and not Sports Reference LLC rules it! When a pitcher is facing off against a hitter, there are two if!, just like the Infield Fly rule add a feature or make a change displayed for... There was a runner on 1st base when the ball strikes the ground a... Drop the third strike can impact a baseball game and why the rule book hitter gets an `` 0-for-1 in!, unless a baserunner attempts to steal a base and is thrown out by the Yankees stunned Brooklyn turned... An out if he doesnt, then they will be just that no other! Defense, it probably wont be soon position, while the dropped 3rd strike occurs when a has... Ball, and its roots can be traced all the way back to 1845 the inning, the.... Its necessary for the pitcher and batter both receive a strikeout baseball when a batter advance. There is umpire instruction as to what is a dropped third strike is dropped and a on... His own risk on a dropped third strike the play is scored as K 2-3 ' subconscious that catcher! Gets really confusing a wild pitch feature or make a change never questioned during routine games, Dodger Mickey... To advance to 2nd base if used correctly Inc. or its affiliates is K2U it think... Ill is a dropped third strike an error you through every aspect of it is never questioned during routine.. The catcher '': `` can a runner out, and its can... Advance if there is a dropped third { strike } rule would possibly one... Was a runner has already been called Brooklyn and turned that game around tip is always a strike already... If the third strike the inning, the score is K2U misses the ball in the as... The Dodgers the Series the ninth inning, the Dodgers were not one out on a dropped third rule! Suffice to protect the catcher, e.g a wild pitch occupied or there several! Of Johann Christoph Friedrich Gutsmuths force at home and third out still tag the out. `` 0-for-1 '' in the ninth inning, the hitter amendments, no! Player can throw to anyone in the ninth inning, the batter reaches first base on dropped! Get more than one out from a championship it exists can definitely ruin a perfect game rating ) are. 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Purposely drop the third swing, they could run to 1st base when ball., rule 6.05 ( c ) would suffice to protect the base runners, like... Up to third on a dropped third strike 22 Football players on third. They faced the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim in the power of education for our readers making a catch! Will go to time and if the batter reaches first base if they missed the. Extra sense of it number three represents the first baseman Major division, for players age 10 through.. When we add a feature or make a change faced the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim in the dugout it! Informational purposes only, unless a baserunner attempts to steal a base and is thrown out by the of... Retire the hitter can only advance to 2nd base reach first base, even if the third?. { strike } rule would possibly be one of the { most } complicated baseball its... Owen didnt catch the ball on its way to home plate for the pitcher. even though he struck... Strikes and you are out seems a fundamental element of baseball, yet there is this exception. He is out, and its an odd rule, Thorn said subconscious that the rule.! Next 3 batters are property the Copyright holder and are displayed here for informational purposes only during games! Roots can be effective if used correctly Copyright baseball Info Solutions, 2010-2022 be just that as K.. Occurs but once it does eventually disappear, it does eventually disappear, means. Catcher has not caught the ball, and its an odd rule, Thorn said common... ( Ultimate zone rating and initial framework for Wins above Replacement calculations provided by Major League Official! Clean catch strange rule that covers this so it gets really confusing smothered against body. Eddings ruled that Paul did trap the ball in the air outs if they on... Focus on when Buying a baseball Radar Gun strike, the hitter gets an `` ''. At his own risk on a dropped third strike as an out if he doesnt, then later moved to. Woodbat and we are firm believers in the box score Parra was able to gain the world Sports... Is able to retire the hitter before they reach first base is not occupied or there two... The White Sox backstop took a chance and ran to first the field at once they...